Frankie Decaiza Hutchinson is a co-founder of Discwoman, a New York-based collective-slash-agency that represents woman and non-binary DJs. She also hosts a festival named Dweller, which takes place in New York and focuses on black talent. February last saw the second Dweller festival, growing in strength year on year. We spoke about her current living arrangements (when we arranged to talk it was on “Berlin time”, so naturally I asked about that), the shockingly negative reaction to Discwoman’s call for help at the start of the pandemic, Dweller’s shift from real-world festival to online blog/magazine and her appearance on an Unsound panel discussing the effect of COVID-19 on the festival landscape.

Are you in Berlin?

Yeah. I just jumped across country a couple days ago. I'm relocating for five or six months, just for now. I don't know. We'll see what happens, I guess. There's not anything for me in New York at the moment.

Any immediate differences that you've noticed?

That's a good question actually., I was here in September as well. When I came then it, I felt like the urgency of what was happening hadn't quite hit here yet. I had already a panicked and traumatised state of mind. My panic and trauma was the spectacle. If that makes sense. And as I was there, cases started to rise and it started closing in more and then weirdly, oddly enough, I'd say I felt like relatively less safe here, because there wasn't a seriousness around it like there is in New York. People just are generally not wearing masks outside. In New York, everybody wears them outside, anywhere. So that's a huge difference for me. That's not to say that one is necessarily right or wrong. One definitely makes me feel a bit more safe than the other. And that was definitely one of the biggest differences. But now coming back, Berlin's going into its third lockdown. But this one is more intense. I think it is hitting a bit. And it's getting a little closer to home for everybody here. But I think generally speaking, though, this government has a better handle on giving support to people who need it. That makes a huge difference. I mean, we've had one $1200 cheque. It's just appalling. I'm in a better position than a lot of people, I'm also in a worse position than some people, somewhere in the middle or something. I think it's been nice having the Music community. Like there's been so much fundraising and donations, and it kind of helps people survive this kind of network, mini-ecosystem, you know, so I was really happy to have that.

On that note, if you don't mind me asking. I mean, how comfortable would you be talking about the response to the Discwoman request for support.

Oh I'm fine talking about that. Are you talking about Jane Fitz?

Yes, yes, I am.

[Laughs] My bff.

I mean, apart from that, was there generally a positive response?

Now, yes, I would say that. At the time, I couldn't tell. Honestly, when that happened, it was one of the hardest times for me, because I was like, wow, I feel like I've spent the last five years trying to do this thing, bring people up and platform marginalised people and do all this like “goodie” work, or whatever you want to call it. And just in the space of a second that all gets forgotten and people want to throw you under the bus? So it just felt really vicious in its nature. And that was what I was really disturbed by, and made me so anxious for a week. I was like, wow, this all just feels so mean. I don't understand what I've done to deserve this, or what any of us have done. So grappling with that was really difficult. I was really low for that time. But then the initial response is like, wow, you're terrible, blah blah blah. And then, people come in and start defending you and then it kind of changes the look of what's going on and like people start realising oh, wow, that actually was really fucked up. Like, why were they treated this way? I think my favourite comment was someone said that “Discwoman always wanted to castrate men” or something like this. What are you talking about? You're so far in this thought of yours. I don't know. I don't even know how you come to this at all. You obviously just really dislike us, a lot. And you're using this opportunity to say that. That was fucked up. And I'll never forget it. ever.

I don't know who said it, But I remember seeing that there were some people who liked that comment.

Jackmaster liked it! Put that on the record.

The editor of Inverted Audio liked it as well.

Yeah! I think that person asked me for something recently as well. This is the thing.

I know someone who writes for Inverted Audio and I messaged him saying like, is this really what your platform thinks? I just thought I'd flag this.

Who thinks this about feminists these days? It's such an archaic thought. Women just want to like, chop their dicks off or whatever, like really generic base level, what the fuck, you clearly don't ever read about anything to do with women, because that's your idea of it, so two dimensional that you can't even make a good joke about it. I feel pretty vindicated at this point. Looking back, you must be so embarrassed. Imagine. Being the person who left a comment like that. I would rather go through that all again than ever be a person who would leave a comment like that. You know what I mean?

I do, I do. "At least I'm not that guy."

Precisely like, wow, I'm really happy with that actually. Really tragic.

So that was like the start of the pandemic, basically, wasn't it?

Yeah, exactly. That's just the beginning, it just kept on going after that, but not necessarily all to do with us. After that there was like a collective, people have kind of had enough of just this, I don't know, self-congratulating techno scene or something like this, where everyone's like, we're all loved, and blah, blah, blah. That kind of experience turned that all on its head. What do any of you stand for really? So it kind of raised these questions. And then when it started coming into Black Lives Matter, I was like, Wow. Well, what does anyone really stand for? Really? And then the question just becomes larger and larger. I think it's been a real shift in consciousness on the scene, which I think is great.

One of the things I’ve been wondering and I've been asking people is that we've seen some efforts. let's say, I know RA has featured more reviews of black artists, and if you look at the mix of the day, it's much more often black artists than not.

They turned the black artist button on, I think.

That's a very good way of putting it. Do you think that's going to be a long-term thing? Or is it just lip service?

I do actually. I do, but it's a hard question to answer, isn't it? I would like to think so. I do think there are going to be some long-term changes. And I feel like there is quite a unified black voice on this. Which I don't think was the same before. And I think we've come together more, and almost like, have each other's backs to some extent. So, if something does happen to a black artist, I think that there's so much pushback now. People are able to hold people accountable for it, I think, in a way that I don't think was possible before, so I'm interested to see how that actually does pan out. It's like, come on. It's ridiculous at this point.

If they were to regress, people could just be like, Hello, what are you doing?

Yeah, like this is ridiculous. Like, is Berghain going to come up with white lineup after white lineup? Again? Probably! But we'll see.

Before the pandemic, there was Dweller, and you've probably spoken about it before. But how did that go? Were you happy with it?

I was, Yeah, I was absolutely ecstatic with it. Honestly, that time period represented so much hope to me. And we had no idea what was coming. we honestly raved like there was no tomorrow. Oh wait, there isn't! It was great, honestly Aidan, one of the best things I've ever been a part of. It just was so organic in the way that it became magical. I don't know, it's hard to describe, and it felt like such a unified, shared experience in this way. And that was just great and I didn't know that so much of what we did was going to feel so much more meaningful, as the year went on, in terms of us actually physically be able to have a festival is one, which no one has really been able to do this year, obviously. And then two, being able to do something that's all black, and that just taking on even more of a weightier meaning as the year evolved. I'm so excited about doing Dweller stuff. It really is so fulfilling to me. And yeah, I can't wait for us to do another one, honestly.

Do you have any plans in motion? Or is it far too soon to be thinking about that?

Way too soon? I don't even know, I’m not particularly interested in doing streams. I just can't, I'm sorry. I thought about doing something for February. But then I was like, what am I going to do? I'm not going to do a stream. Maybe we'll just focus on doing some writing or something, which is where we're focusing our energy now, the blog.

That kind of popped up recently, almost fully formed. Was that something that was in the works for a long time before that?

No! Not at all. So, Ryan who edits it with me, he came to Dweller this year. It's so crazy it was this year, I can't take it. He emailed me after, I didn't know him, he's from New Orleans, and he came up just for the festival and said, I really love what you do, I'm really interested in doing Dweller in a different form or something like this. And we had a FaceTime about it. And we discussed and came into the idea of doing a blog, and then it just built from there really, it just seemed like the right thing to do. And then it was just fun. And I absolutely love working with Ryan. That's really what makes it, having a person who, you just get each other. And everything is just smoother from there. You can trust each other's ideas. That's really special to me. So, I'm really thankful for that, as well as the blog, Ryan sort of just came out of nowhere, like an angel. And it's really been such a great hook for me to put my teeth into this year. Because it's nice to have some kind of structure.

In a normal year, what's the main thrust of operating Discwoman? Artist representation?

Yeah that's most of my work. Emailing promoters and bookers.

So, without emailing promoters and bookers, has Dweller been your main thing then?

Yeah, I would say so. It's gone in waves though., like a lot of people. It's been so hard mentally, it's not like my schedule is, great, and I'm up and doing Dweller stuff, sometimes I'm just lying in bed all day, and I don't want to do shit. And there's nothing that can really pull me out of that. So it's having something to be productive with, but also struggling with bouts of anxiety and depression. It's quite nice that so many people can kind of relate to this state of mind at the moment, being depressed and anxious, because it makes people more forgiving in the way that you aren't always productive all the time. You know? There's a good reason for it. But yeah, I'd say that like most of my time is with Dweller. Making it bigger.

Yeah. You just got a bunch of new merchandise.

Yeah, we just made a new shirt. Basically I just wanted a site where we can pay Black writers, that's essentially it, how can we do that, let's do some merch stuff. that can be an incentive for people to pay for it, blah, blah. And it worked. And it was great. And I am quite into the idea of doing, every few months a kind of merch drive, and people can buy or donate or whatever based on the content we produce. Almost like three to four month instalments or something like this. We'll see, there aren't really any rules to it really, it's really nice being in a position now where we can commission pieces, and that's really exciting to me. And hear people's ideas. We've had some really weird ones. And I love that, having space for all these weird connections between music and politics. It's just awesome, you know?

Yeah, that's the thing about a website. I'm not sure it's utilised enough, but there's kind of no limit really?

Yeah, exactly. That's what I love. This is just our space; we can do what we want. I had someone interested in investing in the company. And I refused it. Well, they were white. So I refused it. Because I was like, I don't want a white person to have control over what we do. But that being said, it was really nice to have someone reach out in that way. "I want to give money to your project." That helps, it's encouragement, people will give money to this kind of thing. So let's keep going. It's nice to have that kind of control over something and be like, No, I'm going to do things like this, no, we're going to do this our way. We don't need to have a big money person to fund what we're doing. This can be definitely more from the ground.

One of the problems with dance music at large is some of the structural and institutional basis of it, let's say, and one of the things we might need is like top to bottom reorganisation. And that's why you're working from the ground up. And that's much more positive, I suppose.

Yeah, absolutely. Everything will vary, but Dweller started from New York local artists. So it's very much on the ground. We want to just keep it as much as we can that way. Well, we'll see. We'll see.

Will it just be New York? Or is it just black artists wherever?

Wherever! Yeah, definitely. Wherever, for sure. And that's also really exciting to me too, I'm as much a student as anybody else. And that's what's really fun, reading all these people's experiences, all over the globe. I'm just learning and it's awesome to have something like this.

How has the Discwoman mix series been going?

It's good. I kind of stopped at 100. Because I don't know what to do now. I feel like times have changed. I feel less comfortable asking for mixes for no money, I have to think about it more honestly. I'm also open for people's input on these kind of things as well, because I'm not really sure how people feel about doing mixes at the moment. Is it such a burden? When we're in the throes of everyone touring it makes more sense to me to be out here, people want to show off what they're doing.

Yeah, it's a business card.

Exactly. It has a function in this way. And I don't think that it doesn't now but I just think it's completely different. You're not doing this to help you get bookings now. You're just doing it, I don't know! I’m not sure.

It's nice to have a round number that you can kind of stand over be like, Okay, that's it.

Yeah, 100 seems good. I feel like maybe I’d be down to start it when things are picking back up again, perhaps. I don’t know when that's going to be, but I think maybe taking a break for a bit would be, good. I just felt like sometimes you're pushing content for the sake of it. Or trying to make something happen that people are just not there for, or in that headspace. I don't like that friction.

I was thinking about asking about the Unsound panel, but I honestly don't even know what to say.

[Laughs] It was a disaster

I mean, I was just having a having a look at it earlier on and then there's a moment where I think you're talking about lineups and festivals and whatnot, and the guy from Pitchfork says, I thought we were going to talk about Coronavirus. As if it's not possible to entertain two thoughts at the same time.

I know, this white dude who lives in Chicago. How dare you?

I don't know if it's still there, but the one time I went to the pitchfork festival it was on the west side of Chicago, which is not exactly like a white enclave, you know?

Right! This is the thing that is so funny. Yeah, okay, you think because you've booked a bunch of rappers at your festival that you're "doing the work" or you don't have to comment and when actually, you should probably comment on this more than others. Are you just treating your black performers as like commodities? Or are you caring about their experience and their experiences in the world in general? But you clearly don't because you just wanted to talk about Coronavirus. I wasn't indicting this person, but how can you not have anything to say? That's what blows my mind.

It was very much like, I can't speak for the industry as a whole, therefore I'm not going to say anything.

Exactly! It's like he went like bright red. I can't talk about this. What is wrong with people, seriously? And they're the ones who get paid and have jobs. It's just so depressing. And I hate the fact that they get cool points for booking whatever rapper that they think is super hard or whatever, but have no interest in caring about that person's experience, or the black experience in general, don't want to make a comment about that, but want to consume this rap music, they just consume it, put it on, you know what I mean? But not talk about the hard stuff. It's gross, honestly.

Yeah. And even the fact that they we're basically asking you for solutions, and so on.

I know. It really caught me off guard, the whole thing. And prior to that, I'd seen the questions and I asked the moderator, I'm not comfortable with these questions. And they were like, well, you can bring up what you want to talk about then. That's what they said. I knew I was being set up to fail, and then it totally manifested in that way. Everyone was annoyed.

It was such a short-lived period, after the mass protests. People are done talking about it now. So, this seemed like such a fatigue and exhaustion by everybody on the panel. Bringing it up. “Oh, here we go.” And that is just like, I can't like seeing people actively exhausted by the fact that you're talking about racism. It's just awful. You really just don't care, you're basically just telling me that you don't care about black people at all.

It was kind of ironic to remember the New York cabaret law. how ironic is it? All the work you put into that? And then within like, what, 18 months? No one can go clubbing at all.

I know! another piece I'm actually starting to work on, which is another irony of this, is that Rudy Giuliani is the one who started enforcing that law. And look at him now. he was an absolute tyrant, he shut down so much nightlife in New York City. And it's like he's doing it again, or something like this. he is such an evil person. just the fact he's been able to kind of ruin New York and do this whole thing. And now he's ruining the whole country. Where is the point where he could have got stopped?

I saw a tweet from someone earlier this year. It was like, "just think he could have been 911 Santa and rode that goodwill off and just retired".

Why didn't he just sit back and take a seat? I’m sure he's got a bunch of money; people could have just forgotten you. Well, not really, but now, I just don't understand why you'd want to do this.

History is not going to look fondly on him, basically everything he's done throughout the Trump presidency.

Exactly. What a piece of shit like seriously, I just want to have an opportunity to talk shit about him. I don't think he's ever had a day of fun in his life. I’m going to have some fun writing this piece.